S2 Ep2 - Nicoleta Grigorov

Welcome to the Expat Equation podcast, where we explore the human side of working abroad. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Johns. And I'm Bianca Cenan. And we're both expats and inclusion professionals.

And through our work at Candidate Aid and Culture Flow, we've helped hundreds of international navigate global careers. And in each episode, we speak with internationals and the companies who hire them to uncover the real stories, the struggles and the strategies behind building a life and career across borders.

Today's guest is Nicoleta Grigorov. Welcome. It is great to have you here today. Hi, Nicoleta. Hi, both. Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be with you. Today, we'll hear about her journey moving abroad, finding a job and what it's taught her about navigating culture and identity and how it shaped her career. So whether you're an international professional or someone working in HR, this episode is for you.And if you enjoyed today's episode, follow us wherever you're getting your podcast and share it with someone who might need to hear this.

Hi, Nicoleta. To start, can you tell us where are you from, what's your international journey and what you're working with? Sure, Bianca. So I came from Romania two years ago when I moved to Portugal for an opportunity in the same telecom company I was working for in Romania for already three years there and now for two years in continuation as a technology product owner. Motivation for me was more of a personal nature, but it somehow was beneficial that it overlapped and combined nicely for me in the end. Perfect. Have you been living in other countries as well or it was just Romania and Portugal? Mainly, but yes, I've been traveling a bit. I've been trying to experience a bit of everything. And to be fair, Portugal was not on my radar when I was actually, you know, before getting to that decision of relocating, I was in discussion with other countries. So I had some offers from Copenhagen and Amsterdam, but after deep reflection, I decided to go further with Portugal. And as part of that job search, you said you were working in a company that was able to provide you opportunities. How did you start that process and what was it like for you thinking, oh, I would like to work in a different country? So I think honestly, that idea came to me long before the actual relocation, right? I think there is a deep click at some point in the personal life of a professional when you feel like, hey, is there more for me here? What is my future here, my path? Where do I go forward? And yes, I started at the same time, I started to receive some calls regarding different opportunities in different countries. And I was like, what's happening? Maybe there is something there that I should explore because somehow it opened my curiosity towards some opportunities like this. And then I started applying, honestly, towards other companies. So I had various changes in Romania as well until the Telecom Company. I still had the different opportunities coming in. At some point, yes, there was a personal debate what I was thinking whether I should continue in the same country or not. And it was clear that the role was already a bit behind, so I wanted a bit more. And at the same time, I saw an opportunity, internal opportunity that was covering both areas, right? A bit of a growth and a relocation. So I applied for it. And from there, the process was really straightforward. It was meant to be for me. Wow, perfect. Okay, so a lot of thought beforehand. But then once you said go, it was a fairly... Yes, it was all thought through. All scenarios, you know, defined. I'm a project manager, so all my plan was laid out. Did you hear the podcast from Vidhi Kumar, who moved from India and came to Norway? And she had a task list of things that she had to do and complete. She's very organised and thorough. It seems to help, having a... Yes, it helps for sure, having that organisatory kind of mentality because Bianca knows those, right? Or you might find things that are a higher priority than what you consider them to be. And then you have to readjust your time. And your time is very limited, especially in the beginning when you are under fire to pack, move, unpack another home, find a home. And do the day job as well. And be all fresh and perfect for the day job. Yes, exactly. Because, you know, people expect you coming with new forces. When you actually go in the back through that transition, that takes a lot from a person, honestly, takes a lot. We will get into that actually later. But the next question I wanted to ask you, what was your immediate reaction to the working culture between Romania and Portugal? Was there a big difference? In terms of my own work and my own company, it was not a big shock because I've been working exactly in the same set up already for three years, like I said. So with the same stakeholders, more or less, it was a great adjustment. But yes, in terms of anything extra outside the company, it was a bit of a shock. I still need adjustment because I am used maybe to be more organized, more prompt, more rapid, more. And in here, the culture is to be a bit more laid back, more relaxed. Some things just, you just have to wait for them to happen. And it's still an adjustment for me, not gonna lie. But yes, there are differences and you just have to get to the point to accept some, some that you cannot change. Yet, I like to challenge some that I do can. I mean, I love how you meant how you are adapting to that pragmatically. It's a reality, right? I mean, to be fair, once you do embark in this journey that you want to change something, you have to also adapt to wherever you go to the culture. It doesn't mean that you have to embrace it all or that you have to make it your own book that you have to live by. You know, I think you have to take a bit of what you learn from a bit of where you come from and a bit of targeting towards where you want to go to and who you want to become in that whole journey and just make your own rules. You know, it's interesting. Love it. Perfect. Great. I love it. I love your answer. Love your answer. Yeah, me too. You're still trying to blend in, but without losing yourself. Exactly. I think that's an important thing that I would recommend to everyone. Okay. I'm not saying also to go somewhere and impose your own beliefs or bring your own home wherever you go and impose it on others. I think you have to be mindful and respectful towards everyone, inclusive, of course, because if something I thought in this process is that we are many people from different places of different sorts. And we are all good people. And in the end of the day, we are all trying to achieve personal and professional goals, regardless of where we come from or where we are. So we just have to make our own little habits, our own little tradition, even though sometimes some don't make sense to other people. Imagine being from Romania and explaining some weird traditions to Portuguese people. Yeah, I'm totally there. But it's an adjustment on both sides, you know. Great. I'm also very curious to know more about the challenges that you have experienced moving to a new country from a more administrative point of view. Like, for example, if you had to open a new bank account or if you had to apply for a Portuguese personal number, you know, all the nitty-gritty details, how did that go for you? Yes, well, that's quite a challenge. And I think no one can say otherwise, no matter where you go to. Yeah, the bureaucracy is a killer. But I was lucky enough to have some support from the company on some matters. And for instance, before I even came here, I managed to already have my fiscal number and the health insurance all set up, at least that. And then the extra challenges in even opening a bank without even having yet a permanent home. And then you cannot rent a house without actually having a bank account. And you cannot open a bank account without having a phone number. And you cannot get the phone number without a bank account. And all those dependencies, they were ridiculous to handle in the beginning. So that's one of those moments when I was like, okay, you don't give me a phone number, I'm not opening a bank account. And I was like, threatening just to make things work. Because, yes, some are not really thought for integration of experts of people that still are with their paperwork in progress. And it was quite a challenge. I mean, even to open a bank account, it took me about three weeks and I had to get some exceptions. The company had to even step in and help me. She works for us. This is her address. We vouched for her to be here, give her a bank account. And I've had support. So whenever I had to ask for something, I spoke up within my company and they were being super supportive on this. We had various companies that were supporting us in this transition. We have dedicated teams that work. So I think lately, a lot of companies have this mobility or global transition kind of departments that are dedicated. It's not perfect, for sure, because nobody can all administrative and laws are part of each country that we move to. It's difficult. So I can understand that. But it was supportive enough to at least start from somewhere. I was not alone in that. I love the fact that it only took you three weeks to get a bank in Norway. I'm very stubborn. I'm very stubborn. No, you have no idea. Very well done. In terms of the language, have you started learning Portuguese? How is it going? Or do you feel like you don't need it necessarily? How is the experience with that? So I had in mind to take proper classes, but because time is so limited, I honestly have no chance at the moment. But somehow I got lucky because I have this inclination towards foreign languages and I picked it up somehow. So I feel confident enough to speak in the personal environment and the personal setting. We can discuss movies or I can go and open a bank account if I have seen Portuguese. But I do try to stick to English for business purposes and for more contractual binding kind of discussion still. I do understand. So whenever I encounter some counterparties in different institutions that don't speak English because that still happens, I manage to get along with them. Between my Portuguese and the German, we manage to make it work. That's great. Did you feel maybe in the first months, did you feel that not knowing the language kind of held you back? And it was a necessity for you to pick up the language? It was a necessity. First of all, I think I did it out of respect for me. I think it's a sign of respect to try to at least have the bare minimum discussion with someone in their own language, especially if you try to integrate yourself in that new region area. But it was hard in different situations, like I said, with different paperwork, with different institutions, still is, that are not obligated by the state to offer support to international people. And it was needed. It was really needed to learn a bit, to be able to move on. So yes, for sure, it can hold you back, but also depends on the location. Because if you go to big cities, 95% of the people speak English, right? It's given everywhere already. But for instance, I decided to live in a smaller city where, you know, not all of the people have studied English or feel comfortable to speak it. So I'm understanding, but they reply to me in Portuguese, you know, so we are halfway. I like that they are open at least to try, but still you can still face minor blockages. Thank you. Great answer, by the way. I think just on a personal outside of this podcast, I think learning a language out of sign of respect is super powerful, I think. And you're not first Romanian. I know some of my close friends are Romanians back in the UK, obviously. And they speak languages super quickly and super easily. It's like a superpower. My colleagues are like, oh, I have to speak a switch between English and Portuguese. Dude, I speak like five languages, sit down. And it's incredible how easy it is for Romanians to learn new languages. It's like, it's, it's anyway, sorry. I just love it. It's amazing. The Romanian from there, Julian, the world is yours. Right. Yeah. I'm struggling learning Norwegian. So what has made you feel truly included or maybe even excluded in your new working home, your working environment? That's a good question. I literally felt excluded, especially at work because like I said, I've been working already for three years. I'm five years here, same setting, more or less same division. But maybe the personal side, you know, like I said, whenever you have something personal, it's a bit harder because even as an adult, it's harder to make real connection with people. And Portuguese people are super lovely and super chatty. But I value more, I value more, I don't know, similar interests and sharing, sharing things than just talking, small talk, you know. So yeah, actually, I think on that personal side, it's a bit more challenging. Not necessarily that you feel excluded, just that it's a bit harder to integrate maybe. Yeah, that's a good, but it's a tough answer. But it's a good answer. It's almost the opposite here in Norway. You know that it's tough to make friends, not because they are very conscious about having very specific friend groups. And it's very hard to break into those friend groups. But I don't, I also think that maybe there are friendships there for me. So for me, the Northern countries, Netherlands, everything seems more, how to say, I don't know how to say polite, more respectful towards a human being. I don't know how to explain. For me, I really would appreciate a direct and honest comment or answer than you trying to be all happy and cheerful. Because this is what's happening here. You know, they are all super nice. They're literally calling you my friend. And you're like, I don't even know who you are. And it's nice for specific events, but still at the end of the day, you know, you want to form deeper friendships and connections, not just this, my friend from the street. Yeah, so that can be a bit harder. But I think it's important to have that system around you from where you come from. Because honestly, my closest friends are still in Romania and still back home. It makes no difference. The support system is there for you. Of course, I made friends and met more colleagues in here, but you develop that system all across the whole life. I think no matter where you are, who has to have this thing, who has to be around you is around you. Like look at Bianca, we haven't seen each other in 10 years, but I'm her biggest fan. And I know she's an amazing human. So it's like if she said, hey, I want to do this. Yes, if it helps anything I can do, it doesn't have to be, you know, daily connection or small talk, or this is supposed to be that deeper and supportive. And for me, it's more of that. So in here, I'm lacking that I'm lacking. It's not an attack on the culture, but it's a bit different, you know, it's so. No, and it's good to mention that because there are people who are, dare I say, not extroverts or introverts or both, or they have different ways of responding to their culture. And it's no matter where you're from, sometimes you feel that it's harder not to get at a cultural, because it's just this is how individually, this is how you prefer things. And that's also okay. Okay. So on that note, was there anything you wish that either HR in either both sides or hiring managers need to understand better about bringing internationals into their organization? Yes. Yes. I don't know if I should be the one saying, but maybe a feedback towards other companies that would like to listen, you know, because internally I gave it a better organization, because for me, it was how to say, I felt like under attack with so many information that I was receiving during that transition, because even in HR, you know, there is one person doing one part, one person doing the other, and it was too many information. And this comes from me that I'm super organized and super, you know, I'm there, you won't trick me to miss anything. But even for me, it was hard to keep track of everything that was coming towards me from different sources. And so a better organization, a better roadmap of what has to happen until when, that's extremely critical. I was not aware of a lot of local regulations. So for instance, taxes, when I have to submit different paperwork for taxes, when I have to submit different paperwork for getting some exceptions, I don't know, all kind of this situation where people don't even prepare you. And if you are like me, a person that likes to be at least prepared in advance, especially because you are in unknown territory that you would like to somehow, you know, be prepared for, you would appreciate a bit more support from them in these matters. Otherwise, I think it's also a matter of yourself, you know, of how you manage to integrate and to adapt to different work culture, you know, local cultures, everything. I think once you decide that you want to do this location, you have to be very aware that adaptability has to be your secret weapon, let's say. So you have to adapt. Like I said in the beginning, it's not just my traditions versus the Portuguese tradition. It's just, I have to adapt to both theirs and I'm trying to also make them adapt or be respectful to some of mine, right? And it might be, I don't know, something that I pick up from along the way, you know, not only from these places A and B, it could be from a third place that is something that I want to keep for me, for my family, for my life. And I'm sticking to it. Amazing. Thank you. Great. Now we're going to go through a quick fire round. We will have a few very short questions and we are recording a quick short answer, if possible, from you as well. Okay? That's right. First things first, best thing about working abroad? You put hard questions, how can I give a short answer? You can take your time to think. So as a person that likes to travel for me, working abroad has enabled that possibility to still explore places I haven't even thought of exploring and to discover parts of history that I didn't even thought of and still to learn, you know? So learning, I would say short. Thank you. What has been your most awkward cultural moment? I mean, I'm in Portugal. There are so many. I wouldn't know what to name as most awkward, but I'm still adapting to a lot of the carnivals, fiestas, all kinds of parties, local parties. There's always a party, especially during summertime. Well, if you go through smaller villages, you always see a party and I'm not really sure what's happening, what I should do if I'm allowed to move through that street because I feel like I'm interrupting something. That sounds like a nice awkward cultural moment there. What's one local tradition that you love? I really don't know what to say here. Like I said, I'm adapting. Is there something about the food or the music? Food, I'm still adapting to that too, because despite what everyone thinks, they don't all eat only fish. I was shocked because I like fish. I came here for the fish. That's the awkward cultural moment. What? No fish? You have no idea. I'm going to places and I would like some fish, meat. We only serve meat and they only serve it raw. It's about to move back at me and I'm like, no. I don't know. I would say that's a nice moment that I appreciate about them is how hard they're trying to bring the whole family together for specific events, for specific holidays. Although it's not always easy and you cannot always be there for everything, but they are still trying regardless of where you are, where you come from. They are trying to make you feel included all the time, kind of like similar to Romania, to guilt you into not coming for holidays. If it was up to me, I would prefer remote for sure, due to the fact that we all work in this global environment, but I think hybrid has its benefits in connecting with some of the people you do have some work with. In my situation, it's little interaction with the people I really work with, but still it's meaningful. I enjoy to go into the office. I plan to do so tomorrow. Everyone that wants to come tomorrow to the port office, I'm there. I like the hybrid thing too. I think it's this stuff where you can do closed door work at home, and then if you need to go in, it's for the conversations and meetings and stuff. That's really valuable. Especially when there is maybe a wider communication that we have to put out there to some meetings that would be more meaningful. I don't know, I think once a month at least we could be all together. I agree. Even if it's only for the coffee break, when you just chat a bit with your colleagues and interact, that's also a good thing. What do you mean? I feel like I only go for coffee breaks when I go to the office, because I want to catch up with everyone. That's why it has to be more balanced. We cannot go daily, otherwise we'll be all coffee junkies. Now that we are talking about coffee, what do you prefer, coffee or tea, and how do you take it? I love coffee, but because in here they are usually using only the small espresso, very intense. Sometimes I would rather take some tea to balance a bit the caffeine intake, because I'm agitated enough due to my work. I cannot have too many coffees, so I balance them throughout the day. Last of the quickfire questions. What is your superpower? Organization. Nobody organizes like me. Anything. That translates into personal and professional. I think it's something that can help you enormously in any aspect. Regardless of what you even do, I think organization is key. To have your clear agenda, your clear outcome that you want to envision it. Envision what you want, and then you see how. You just have to start. You cannot only focus on the outcome. That is also a tricky part that sometimes I fall into. That path of perfectionism, how to be the best product, the best outcome, but it's not always that. It's also sometimes started and then you manage to adapt, but organization is key. What advice or tips would you give to someone who is just starting their expat journey based on your experience? You have been telling us that you are still helping other expats finding their way, so what are the tips you are normally sharing with them? To not back down when they find the first obstacle, because you will find them. That's a guarantee. There will be a lot of challenges that maybe will disarm some people, but I think the moment you feel that rupture, that you want to make this change, that's the moment when you also have to decide that you'll push through any obstacle that will come and just keep your eyes on the prize. You want to be there. It's an experience. It doesn't have to be forever. You go, you start. Like I said, it's the first milestone of your product. You want to achieve that relocation. You go, you achieve it, you settle professionally, settle personally, and then if you don't feel it's the right place for you, you still can move. You're not a tree to get roots physically to not be able to switch. Amazing. Good answer. If you could give any advice to international team managers or managers hiring international talent, what would you say are the advantages to bringing international talent into an organization? Oh, there are some, but I don't want to brag as an expert. No, I think a person that's an expert and comes to a new place of work, a new work culture would bring so much to that team and not only to the team, to the company. First of all, that person's dedication is different because that person is committed to themselves to make that relocation successful. Somehow I would say that they implicitly commit to also deliver a good work, to set their work basis in a very healthy way. For a lot of us, this is a new restart in which you can reset your identity as a professional, as a person. Most of us, I would say we try to do that. We try harder than we would in our own comfortable area we came from to just step out and be more daring, be more assertive, be more hardworking than we would if a person stays in the same comfortable area, in their comfort zone, not trying to go the extra mile. I know we do. I know. That's a really fascinating answer from both sides. Not only that you push yourself more and can give more. As a result, that's the benefit to the team because you're there too. Yes, I do feel like there's a different energy. When you see a person that's trying hard to make some things go better, I think the person around tries to help on that. I feel like everyone comes together and the results are better, but that's just me. My experience is the same. I believe that when people do move countries, they want it to work, not just because of the job, but because they've committed to this big change. It's more than just the job that's at stake. It's everything about that identity that they've taken with them into this new place. Exactly. It's not just for the paycheck or for something. You wanted that. You really tried hard to get it, so you work for it. We talked a lot about working, about dedication, but I'm very curious to know what does belonging mean to you now after having this expat experience? Does this change from the time you were in Romania or you feel it's the same? That's a great question, Bianca. I think there is a period when you don't feel like belonging before doing the switch. That was my case. I felt like I was not in the right place, not in my forever place already. I don't know how to put it into words, hence why I needed the change. Then you do the change and you feel like you belong to both places or that sometimes you belong more to one than the other, and it's such a weird feeling. I wouldn't even say even now that I belong over here. I feel like I belong everywhere. It's still a weird feeling. I don't know if in some years this will change, but for sure it's strange because right now I'm in between. You have two homes, two places, two cultures in between. You split yourself and it's really hard to pinpoint. Yes, I'm more that. I think you just become someone, something and people will just have to accept you. No, I think it's a great answer because I think it's not that you change, but you just develop. Yes, I would not be less Romanian even if I was the perfect Portuguese. You add this into your skill set, I think, and you become someone who has lived abroad for three or four years. It might be Italy, it might be Holland, it might be America. It changes you. For instance, even though the personal experience is like traveling, I like to travel, but I go anywhere and I don't feel like a tourist like I used to anymore. I go and I feel like a local. I go to Spain, I feel like a local. I already know where to go, how to speak, how to travel to places less touristy, like I like to. I think this really changes you as a person. It transforms you into some global citizens, if you want to put it that way. I don't know. You belong everywhere, but nowhere. Nowhere really, but I am sure that there is a place where we feel more at peace, at least in time. I'd like to hope for that. So where do you feel most at peace? For sure it can be where we are now? Amazing. Nicoleta, thank you so much for today. Thank you for sharing your story of building a career and life across borders. Thank you so much for having me. We hope her experience reminded you that you're not alone and that navigating life abroad is as much about community as it is about courage. And if you're an international professional looking for support or working in HR, wanting to improve how your company hires and supports global talent, you'll find links to Candidate Aid and Culture Flow in the show notes. We'd love to support your journey. Don't forget to subscribe and share this with someone who might need to hear this. This is the Expat Equation, exploring the human side of working abroad, powered by Candidate Aid and Culture Flow. See you next time. See you next time.