S2 Ep1 - Susana Meza

speaker-0 (00:00.046)
Welcome to the Exapt Equation, the podcast where we explore the human side of working abroad.

We're your hosts, I'm Julian Johns.

and I'm Bianca Cenan. We're both experts and inclusion professionals and through our work at Candidate Aid and Culture Flow, we've helped hundreds of international navigate global careers.

And in each episode, we speak with internationals and the companies who hire them to uncover the real stories, struggles and strategies behind building a life and career across borders.

Today's guest is Susana Meza, the CEO of Charge, helping underrepresented founders grow, fund, and strengthen their ventures in the startup ecosystem. She has a master's in innovation and entrepreneurship from BI Norwegian Business School in Norway and an international MBA from EADA Business School, Spain. Welcome to Susana.

speaker-2 (00:55.426)
Hi Bianca, hi Julian. Yes, no thanks to you for inviting me and yeah have this lovely conversation with you.

Nice to meet you, thank you for coming today.

speaker-0 (01:06.998)
Susana, would you like to tell us a few more words about who you are, what are you doing on the professional side and how did you end up in Norway?

Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm coming from Peru, so I am also an economist and a proud mom. I developed all my career mostly in corporates, in banking and insurance companies. And I worked like 15 years there. And then I came to Norway because I was very involved in digitalization projects in my previous jobs. So I became very interested in innovation and I was also an entrepreneur, but in my country. So I found this amazing program here in Oslo at BI and I decided, okay, I want to study again. I want to learn more about innovation and entrepreneurship and become a specialist in that.

So that's what I did. I came here in 2019, a little before COVID. So that was special because actually the second year of my master I did everything online. But yeah, but I think that it was yeah, it was okay. And then in that period actually, when I was finishing my master and I started to write my master thesis, I became very interested in social entrepreneurship and impact investment.

Because nobody was talking about that. So that's one of the things that I think that are very characteristic in me that I always, I'm very curious and when people don't talk about something then I get more curious. So I decided, okay, if nobody's talking about this then maybe I should do it. And in that process I became involved with Charge. So I started to collaborate with them. They helped me with my master thesis.

speaker-2 (03:12.62)
And then finally I started to work at Charge and well things developed very quickly and some years ago actually I took the leadership of Charge and I have been working more than five years, almost six and I'm very happy because for the first time in my life I am not using just my brains and my energy for you know to make shareholders richer but I am actually doing something that I believe in and that I also think that can change lives. Yeah, that's me.

That actually, our next question was going to be how has this changed your personal or professional journey? But you've just said that. You've turned to life outside corporates.

Yeah, I can add a little. So when I was working in corporates, of course, it was a great experience because I had the opportunity to build a very strong career path back then in Peru and work for big companies and with amazing people. In my country, like I think other countries, you usually work 10 hours per day.

And many weekends and Fridays, especially I work until midnight at the office. So it's normal. You get to the office at nine, but you don't know what time exactly you're finishing. So, and especially if you're a woman, then you need to do it just like that. There's no option. So I, I am very, when I look back, I'm very happy about the experience that I had, because I learned a lot and I had very good opportunities to grow professionally.

But every day when I got home, very late, I'm very tired, I felt emptiness because I felt what I have done today, really, rejoin, you know, reaching my KPIs, maybe, you know, renewing some big accounts and everything.

And I felt, okay, I think that I want to do more with my energy and my knowledge. So that was the point when I felt I need a change before it's too late to do something with this, you know?

Can I ask why Norway then? Peru, amazing beautiful country, mountainous obviously. It's not exactly all warm and... But why almost the opposite side of the world really? Why Norway?

Well, basically when I decided I want to learn more about entrepreneurship and innovation and I want to be a again and I want to become a specialist in this topic, then there were several options, of course. I studied my master, my MBA in Spain and that was an amazing experience for me because I studied in amazing business school there. But this time,

I was in a point of my life where I felt, no, I need a challenge, like a real challenge. Not only go back to school when I was already 39, but also I want to go to a place that challenged me on a personal level. So I start to think, and I love winter. So it was not so difficult actually when I started to look the map and I knew that I wanted to go to Europe because I have a lot of family in Europe.

speaker-2 (06:52.514)
So I started to look at the Nordics and then I built an Excel where I put different factors, know, like weather, GDP, inflation, employment, you know, a lot of variables. And then I played with that Excel and the final answer with all the things that were important for me was Norway. So I haven't been in Norway before coming here to live and study, not even like a tourist. But I let my intuition to lead me and all the things, this research that I made, I felt, this is not only something that I feel that is correct, but my big excel also says the same.

It works both ways, yeah. The heart and the mind together. And quickly, you mentioned that you have a child. Did that happen before or when you came to Norway?

Exactly, yeah.

speaker-2 (07:57.473)
Yes, yes, I am a mom.

speaker-2 (08:02.661)
my son is already 23 years old.

So how exactly, how did that family aspect make Norway even more or part of the decision?

yeah, so well, my son was already a grown up when I came. He was already 18 years old and he had finished school. So I talked with him because we have a very close relationship. I talked to him about the decision that I made, this big conclusion that I did after my Excel and all of that. So he felt that it was also interesting. He felt that it was, yeah, yeah, this sounds...

rational this sounds good he's super smart voice super super smart so he I will say that he gave me also that feeling of you know yeah this is correct because he had like a good perception of the path that I wanted to take

Here.

speaker-1 (09:01.166)
Amazing. previous guest, Viri Kumar, did virtually the same thing as you with the Excel spreadsheets and analysing everything and then she had, got two small kids and that was very important that they could bring up their children here in Norway. Which is for women, think particularly when they're travelling with their partners, it's one of the core requirements, is it safe, how is it so? Amazing.

Yes, I realized I missed a big part of the introduction, sorry. So can we have maybe... If this sounds interesting to you, continue to listen out to our episode and subscribe and so on. Okay.

can do that at the end. Yeah, we can just make sure we do it at the end and we can crop it in. Yeah, yeah. Superb.

speaker-1 (09:53.004)
We are just before the topic deep dive. So there's cultural shift or defining moment is where we are now.

I am.

Okay.

Sorry, I thought...

No worries.

speaker-1 (10:06.942)
I have a habit of doing too many follow-up questions. So she's like, where are we?

you

Okay, so then I go to the cultural shift.

Whichever one you think is.

Okay.

speaker-0 (10:23.968)
Okay. Susanna, I have maybe a more challenging question for you, but hopefully not too scary. But I'm very curious to know what is the defining moment of your journey abroad so far? Do you have one or do you have more that you would like to mention?

Well, were several. I'm not sure if I can say there was one. If I were to choose one, then I think that it could be the point when I was in my second year of the master and I start to become interested in social entrepreneurship and impact investment.

These were terms that I was not familiar with. So actually I learned about them when I was reading one of these papers that I had to read. When I started to read, I felt that something moved inside me because all my life I have felt there should be a way where people can pursue profitability and of course,

gain money doing business, but at the same time impact people in a positive way. That was something that was always inside me, but I didn't know how to call that. So when I read these papers, then I put a name on that. I learned and I became familiar and passionate about that because I have always been passionate about entrepreneurship and also to put some contribution.

the society, help people as much as I can. So I think that that was the moment maybe, you know, when I felt like a call, like, yeah, this is something that I want to learn more. And this is something that I would like to be involved. So actually writing my thesis on that, I think that was the first step, big step that I took because again, nobody was talking about that.

speaker-2 (12:37.868)
And I felt actually a little frustrated because I felt I'm studying, you know, in the biggest business school here. And most of these people are going to be the future politicians, CEOs, or founders of unicorns. We should be talking about this. We should be talking about these fantastic terms that I just learned reading these papers. And...

Yeah, maybe I could say that that was one of those breaking points because that's what's the moment when I decided to write this thesis and this thesis led me later on to be involved with church. And I think that even, you know, even if in the future things change and maybe I am in another place, I feel that this is a topic that I am always gonna be

passionate about because I don't have any doubts that this could be done. There's no excuse for me that an entrepreneur doesn't have both things embedded in the business plan or in their goals or the KPIs because there's always a way to do something good to give back. That's what I believe.

That's amazing.

No, I agree. think it's a lovely way of contrasting essentially what are fairly toxic technical trends coming out of America. And then you have to say, hold on, anything we do has to have some form of social good. Yeah. And that you can still make money from it. It's not bad to do both, but to be able to have that. Muto Kato writes about this and Alex Edmonds writes about sharing the pie.

speaker-1 (14:33.726)
you know, it doesn't have to be just for shareholders. It can be for the community. So that's amazing. I think it's quite a defining moment really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

because before I, to be honest, I haven't think about that defining moment but now that you are asking me this and I try to look back, yeah I think that that was the moment when many things changed and many paths a new journey is open for me.

If someone would have asked me how do I see you, because we are also friends for a few years now, and I would say that that's what actually defines you to make sure that there is also a big part of social entrepreneurship, not only making money and serving shareholders, but also bringing back to the community.

Yeah, and I mean, there's different ways to do that, you know, because unfortunately, some people have not a clear concept or the best concept about social entrepreneurship. And I mean, if you are a founder and you have a team and you prioritize to develop your team and provide them well-being and create the best, you know, working environment for them, for me, you are already doing social impact.

because you are already contributing to create a, to promote the development of people in the best way. And they will become people that will contribute back to society. So there's different ways to do it. That's what I mentioned. There's no excuse for me when I hear people say, no, no, I'm not doing that. I am a tech founder.

speaker-2 (16:19.276)
Yes, you can be a tech founder, you can also have even small contributions.

I'm also very curious to know before you came here to study and then of course you had to search for a job, how did the job searching process go for you? Do you feel it was hard? What kind of challenges did you encounter and how did you overcome them?

Well, actually, when I was studying, I took different jobs. I did all the jobs that you can imagine that immigrants do when they come here. And in that journey, I... Even if I did things that, of course, I was overqualified, I always felt that I was gaining already. Because I felt...

I am here and there's people that want to pay me for doing things and they are, you know, giving me a space and I'm learning. Even if I'm overqualified, I'm already gaining. This is already positive for me. If I was, you know, a manager with an office and everything back in my country, here I am starting from scratch. And I had that very clear before I came here. I am starting.

Even

speaker-2 (17:44.468)
a new history, a new chapter. So it's okay for me starting from scratch. And I am always being grateful for the people that gave me my first job opportunities. Like a founder is grateful for the first customers that pay. So for me, it's the same. And later on, I got involved with charge. So that was also something that, of course, made my journey.

much easier than the journey that maybe other immigrants have here in Norway, of course.

Going back to that mindset of clean slate, tabula rasa, right? You come in, no matter how experienced you have an MBA to your name, you've had offices, you've had everything potentially that a successful professional has and you say, in Norway, I am ready to start from the bottom because it's a different story. That's an incredible mindset to have. A lot of people who come from all over the world to Norway to live and work.

have an attitude where, no, hold on, I am special, I have, you need me, and they struggle with making that transition. What advice can you give to those people? Because that mindset is quite healthy in my mind, but what advice can you give to them?

I was say...

speaker-2 (19:11.608)
Don't frustrate yourself with the things that you cannot change right now. You have your energy and your time. They are limited. So put them to work on the things that actually you can work on, you know? So if right now maybe you are not getting that opportunity that you are expecting to have, whatever opportunity you are getting,

Do it in the best way. Try always to be the best. Because then not only for the people that hire you, but also for you. Because then when you go home, then you are gonna feel, yeah, I did this and I was the best. And I delivered top and I feel good with myself. And then there's always ways where you can fulfill your expectations. Even if you have a part-time job that is

maybe giving you the money to cover rent and your basic needs, of course, then you can always study something in the afternoon or the evening. You can always write a blog. You can always start to write a book. You can always coach someone. So I don't think that a situation doesn't define people. It's you the one that actually find, okay, how?

I'm going to fulfill my expectations, how I'm going to build a meaningful life. So I will say that it's a mindset that sometimes, of course, it's not easy to develop, especially when you are in a place where everything is different and maybe you don't have friends. But when I came here, I didn't have friends. I didn't know anybody. So I spent many afternoons crying, many afternoons missing my family.

and wondering if I took the right decision. But then maybe I cried, you know, that night and then I fell asleep. But the next day I woke up and I realized I'm still here and I have this day that is starting and I'm alive and I'm healthy. So. Let's make the best of it, because life is just one, you know, and.

speaker-2 (21:34.422)
If you are ready there and you made a sacrifice to cross the world, then you better use this opportunity.

Amazing. That's an amazing answer.

I would like to ask you a bit about the working culture. You mentioned a bit on how the working culture is in Peru, and now you also experience working culture in Norway. Can you please tell me a bit what was the biggest difference that you experienced when you moved to Norway? And also maybe how did you adjust to the new working pace, if I can call it like that?

Wow, yeah. So it's totally two different worlds. And again, I don't think that there's no perfect situation, you know? Even if, of course, I worked very, very long hours back in my country, I feel that also helped me to become very efficient. I'm efficient, very goal-oriented, you know? And when I came here,

Of course, things were very different. But I think that's something that helped me to deal with this different pace was to learn, actually invest time to learn. So when I came here and I started to work at Charge at the beginning, even if I love to talk.

speaker-2 (23:11.31)
and I'm very creative and I have new ideas every five minutes. I chose the beginning to be more quiet because I wanted to learn, I wanted to observe, I wanted to analyze and then see, okay, how things work here and how me with all, you know, myself, I can find a middle ground where I don't lose myself and my essence.

but I can make me functional in this new environment. And how things happen, I think that this pace that you talk is the biggest difference that I see. In Peru and all Latin American, we are always behind. The day was yesterday. Because we have so many things to do that...

you need to be very quickly and people are so competitive like in an aggressive level so you always need to be the best you always need to be fast you always need just to you know be as much as productive as you can and I'm not saying that people are not efficient or productive here they are but the pace is very different of course it is I mean I was a mom and I miss so many

meetings, presentations in my son's school because I just had to be there, you know, I had to be with that client making that business, you know, or in a meeting with my boss. and that here personal life is more prioritized. And I think that that's amazing. And I I wish that I had that before when my son was younger. But again, not everything is, you know,

black and white. think that maybe those sacrifices that I did, my son, now that he's a grown up, he saw that. And he has so much respect for me. And I feel that he feels that because he saw that even if I wanted to be there with him, in that moment I had to prioritize something. So we both had, you know, money to pay things that we needed.

speaker-1 (25:31.733)
Again, an incredible personal answer because the fact that my story is different to yours, it has the same kind of challenge which was I came here and there was void. I had spent the last 15 years working, 20 years, 19 hour days, 12 to 14 hour days and that's all that defined me. That was it. I had no hobbies.

So what do do? I do this, this isn't my job. No, but what do you do? Okay, I explain my job more. No, what do you do? Yeah. I have nothing.

Exactly, it's incredible that you say that because right now I am in a period of my life that for the first time I am starting to slow down thanks, you know, to Norway and all the things that I have learned here and to starting to discover myself because my life was so defined by my work

and the things that I did at work when I was there, that as you mentioned, I didn't have many hobbies or you I think that I always did an effort to have a balanced life, but of course it was very difficult. And here, maybe one of the biggest gifts that I have received from Norway is that for the first time in life, I have the opportunity to have not only the professional development,

but also the personal development to actually understand who I am, what I want, and where I want to go.

speaker-1 (27:11.982)
100%. It's been personally a revelation and I wish I'd come to Norway 10 years ago. What's the next question? Language. Did language or knowing a language or communication in a new country ever hold you back?

You

speaker-2 (27:33.902)
Interesting. So when I took the leadership charge, of course, there were certain concerns because I was still not fluent in the region. Concerns that I also share because, of course, I thought at the beginning, am I going to be enough? You know?

because I am a person that when I accept a responsibility, I take it with all, you know, and I put my heart and my soul to fulfill my commitments. So it was very scary and stressing at the beginning because in my position I had to mainly bring projects, initiatives, money.

charge resources and of course that required to use the language in different ways, know, to write reports, to write proposals, to onboard people, send emails, know, participate in meetings. I think that at some point I understood

I need again to be functional with the things that I have, with the capabilities that I have right now. I need to find a way. And that's what I did. I use all the technology tools, wonderful tools that we have today. I use my husband to translate the comments for me sometimes or to correct documents or friends that also help me, you know. So I think that

a person that has the willingness to do something, then always finds the way to do it and the positive attitude. You know? so now I would say that it's still something that I'm working on, of course, my language skills in Norwegian, but my reasons go beyond that.

speaker-2 (30:00.322)
professional stress that I had at beginning. It goes more than my connection with Norway, my connection to society. And now that I have the citizenship as well, of course, I want to become fluent. So it's more on the personal side.

We talked about the challenges you experienced, but I would also like to bring the positive things that happened to you. So I'm very curious when you think about what made you feel truly included or excluded, but hopefully you have more examples on the inclusion side. Could you name some of them?

Well, through CHARGE, I have met amazing people that now have become friends. And I think that has been a blessing for me because again, not everybody has that opportunity, you know, to meet all these community and amazing people that I have met through CHARGE. So I would say that that's the main opportunity that I got here in Norway.

to feel that sense of belonging. Because I feel that it's not only how you feel, but when you work with people or you interact with people and socialize, and you see that they are happy, they smile because they feel comfortable, because they found a nice place where people want to help them, you know? Then it's like a mirror. That also helps you to feel okay.

This is good. I am in a good place. I am finding a space for myself here. yeah. I will say that it was thanks to charge. And yeah, maybe I can add something there actually because I wouldn't be fair if I don't mention that, besides charge, I also had the blessing to find

speaker-0 (31:51.744)
Awesome.

speaker-2 (32:09.1)
a very good man that I married here. And his Norwegian and his family has been nothing than amazing with me. Treating me as a daughter, so they have become my Norwegian parents. And through them, I have also developed this sense of belonging, because of course, even if my parents are far from me in Peru and I miss them so much,

Now I have my Norwegian parents who also take care of me. And they also teach me things about their culture and about their lives. And that has also been a blessing for me to have that opportunity.

So nice.

Beautiful. We're now going to go into a quick fire round. And so we're going to go through some really quick questions. It doesn't matter if the answers aren't quick as well. We'd like them to be quick. But if something sparks your mind, just say. It doesn't have to be short all the time.

We also discussed first about hiring international.

speaker-1 (33:17.65)
No, I it up because I moved it because it then goes in with the other questions about advice to businesses. So I thought let's let's yeah.

Perfect.

Great quick fire round now, hopefully three or four minutes, five questions. And the first question is, what's the best thing about working abroad?

diversity.

most awkward culture moment.

speaker-2 (33:42.872)
hugging people. No, no, no, not in Norway.

What's the local tradition that you love?

From Norway. Prioritizing family.

Remote, hybrid or office. What do you prefer?

Hybrid

speaker-1 (34:02.318)
coffee or tea and how do you take it?

Tea every morning. A big jar of tea.

And last but not least, what's your superpower?

Ooh. Be resilient.

I was going to say that.

speaker-0 (34:24.929)
I would also say bringing people together.

Hahaha

Yeah, you're quite a connector actually, quite a super connector.

Thank you.

speaker-0 (34:36.372)
Now we would like to ask you for some advice. And you have been an expat yourself. You're also working with expats. So I would very much like you to help us with an advice for someone who would like to start their expat experience or they have just started. What would you tell them to kind of encourage?

Hmm.

I would tell them first of all you are a brave person because you want to leave your comfort zone so be first of all be proud because you are a part of that small percentage of people in the world that actually take the decision to you know leave the world that they know to go to do something new

Be proud of you!

speaker-2 (35:30.126)
So I will say feel proud of you because if you are brave enough to do that, I'm sure that you are going to be brave enough to deal with all the challenges that you can encounter. Just don't forget who you are. What's all that amazing experience and skills that you have in you? Bring them because they are always valuable.

you will always find people that will be willing to give you an opportunity. And when you get that opportunity, make the most of it

So as a follow on, so all these amazing immigrants coming into Norway, expats who want to start their life here. On the other side of that equation are businesses in Norway looking to hire. So what would you say to any Norwegian business is the advantage of hiring international talent into a team or a company here?

Bringing people that might be, you know, that might have a different background from yours will always be something to add on to your organization. There's amazing organizations in Norway with amazing working cultures.

But bringing people that have a different background will just bring positive things in the sense that add-ons to that culture. The culture doesn't need to change, but that person that is bringing maybe previous experiences from working abroad in a different environment, in a different ecosystem, will enrich. There's no hazards.

speaker-2 (37:29.858)
this person will enrich this culture that you already have, bring new perspective, new ideas, if you are able to create a safe space for that person to actually develop. So don't be afraid because things will change, yes, but if you provide the correct support, it will change in a positive way for everyone.

fantastic because you kind of pointed out the risk that is always seen from the business side. it's such a big risk if you bring an international, what if this person is leaving to their home country, what if they kind of break the balance we have. What would you say to those business owners or business people?

Well, we at Charge, we are an international team. We have had Norwegians and people from different countries always. And we always deliver. We always do what we need to do as a team because I think that if you show people respect and you create a safe environment where people can actually

open and share the thoughts, then it doesn't matter where you come from. You are already there and you have already put a solid base, which for me is respect, safety-ness and openness. If you bring that, then I think that people feel that they can trust and they can contribute.

in the best way that they can. That has what we have done. We never think about how different we are. We always focus on the things that we want to do, that we are passionate about, and we work together to do that. And when we talk about the difference that we have, we're talking...

speaker-2 (39:46.06)
with curiosity, you know, we talk because we want to know, what are the traditions in your country? How is your culture? know, we want to learn about each other.

Yeah, that's a very nice way of putting it. And if I understand correctly, then the base for avoiding that risk everyone is thinking about is making sure they have the right set up in place before they start growing the team. Is that correct?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, we are all, you know, human beings here. For me, something that I have learned in these last years, I would say, is that...

Peace is one of the main things that people can have, you know? So if you are an employee, you want to have peace in the way that you feel that you are in a good place, where you can have opportunities, where you are respected, and you can talk freely if something is not working well. And if you are a boss, you want to work with people that are happy, that feel, you know, that they are having

that they have peace in their hearts because then you will also have the same peace and you will go home and you are going to be a fantastic father or a fantastic husband so there's no point in avoiding creating that nice space where everybody can feel okay and good and connected

speaker-1 (41:36.718)
I think if you ask the next question about hiring managers, we're just repeating the thing. So do want to go to the last question? I'll just I've written it down for you Bianca last question. What does belonging mean to you now?

Yes. Okay.

Unless you want to respond to what Suzanne has just said, you can go straight to the last question. Do you remember what she just said? That's a great answer.

speaker-0 (42:05.87)
It was about how people feel happy.

speaker-0 (42:11.758)
You were mentioning earlier about finding peace at work. I'm very curious now after learning all these things and moving to different countries, not only one but two, what does belonging mean to you? And did this change over time or it was the same since the start?

For me belonging needs connection. I feel belong when I feel connected to something or to someone. And yeah, I think that that can change as well because...

Now I feel this connection still, of course, with my home country and I will always be. But now I also feel this connection with Norway and the people. And I think that that's possible because we have these amazing hearts that allow us to feel connected to different things without forgetting, you know, our past.

history or our family or our friends. I think that we can feel that belonging and that connection to also to these new places where we go and these new people that we meet.

I feel this goes a bit into a saying that we have in Romania, that for example when you have more than one kid, your love doesn't split in two, but your heart grows and you just have more love. So it's the same with the countries, more or less. Amazing. Thank you so much Susanna for joining us today. It is really a pleasure talking with you and sharing your experience.

speaker-2 (43:51.946)
Exactly, yes.

speaker-2 (44:02.926)
Thanks, guys.

And for everybody listening, we hope her experience has reminded you that you are not alone and that navigating life abroad is as much about community and connection as it is about courage.

And if you're international, professional, looking for support or working in HR, wanting to improve how your company hires and supports global talent,

You'll find links to Candidate Aid and Culture Flow in the show notes. We would love to support your journey.

And don't forget to subscribe and share this with someone who might need to hear it.

speaker-1 (44:33.442)
This is the Expat equation, exploring the human side of working abroad, powered by candidate aid and culture flow. See you next time.

See you next time.

Bye.